The Mad Poets Blog

Marion Deutsche Cohen is the author of seventeen books and chapbooks, some poetry, some prose. She is also a mathematician, and her latest, just-released, book is “Crossing the Equal Sign” (Plain View Press, TX), consisting of poetry about the experience of math. Her other books have been about pregnancy loss, chronic illness and caregiving, solipsism, temper tantrums, and (completing the cycle) math. Her “loose poems” (not in books) are often about the polarity between communication and solitude, and how this plays out in more concrete situations. Her math Ph.D. is from Wesleyan (Conn.) and she has taught math at area colleges, most recently the University of PA and University of the Sciences in Philadelphia. She has four grown children and two gran’s. (Also, three or five cats, depending how you count them…) Among her non-writing non-math interests are classical piano, singing, Scrabble, and thrift-shopping.

Q. You have instructed at a number of universities. Do you have a favorite and why?

I don’t have any STRONG favorites, but I harbor fond memories of Temple, where I first went back to teaching (math, part-time) when my youngest was six, almost seven. Yes, I was very much a stay-at-home mom — more accurately, a stay-with-my-kids mom (In fact, my two youngest home-schooled for 8 years) — and a stay-with-my-writing writer. I was also at that time extremely busy being a well-spouse, which is the spouse of somebody chronically ill and/or disabled. (My first husband had very advanced multiple sclerosis, before his death three and a half years ago.) At Temple I taught calculus, and the students seemed to me to be very appreciative, and happy to be there. Their reasons for being there seemed to NOT be only that their parents or society wanted them to be. They were also extremely demonstrative about how much they liked me as a teacher, so of course that felt great. And their written comments, at the end of each semester, about my teachings were such that they seemed to be WRITERS; i.e., not only did they adore me, but they were very good at expressing that. — I also hold particular fondnesses for most of the other places I’ve taught, for various reasons; it’s too long a story for here. — The reason that I’ve taught so many places is, bluntly, that none of them lasted very long for me. I was always “successful” at my jobs, and my teaching ratings were usually excellent, but the half-life of an adjunct teaching position is often short; in my case, the departments’ need for parttimers expired, or the administrations made changes beyond the departments’ control. — Now I’m unemployed and very much loving it! I’m concentrating a lot more on writing and promoting my work, and I like being free of certain stresses. I have, however, appled for two fulltime non-tenure-track positions, as well as informally emailing all the chairpeople who know me, querying about adjunct teaching for the fall, and we’ll see what happens. The main thing, though, is that last June, almost immediately upon realizing that I probably would be unemployed for the next academic year, I placed my new book, “Crossing the Equal Sign”, of poetry about the experience of math. To me, that book has been, among other things to be discussed below, what I’ve done INSTEAD of having a “real” career as a mathprof, and that’s been more than okay with me, though not without internal struggle

I’d like, however, to say some things about this “prolific bit”. First, I do NOT believe that it’s BETTER for a writer to be prolific; what I think is important is that she write what needs or wants to be said, no more and no less. Some-times what needs to be said is said in one book, or one poem, and sometimes in the 30 books I have so far written (plus other stuff not in books). Also, I do NOT specifically try to have a busy life, or to “keep busy”. I do NOT believe that, e.g., “one HAS TO or SHOULD keep busy”; I’m not a work-ethic type, politically or personally. I think it’s important, at last for me, to have plenty of (not only SOME) non-busy time. In my book of “miscarriage poems”, I wrote, “So tired am I that I want there to be only one of everything…” And I goof-off a lot, both constructive goofing-off and just-plain goofing-off goofing off. I go thrifting at least one full day a week; it saves a lot of money but that’s not why I do it. — I asked my husband if he has any insight as to why I’m prolific and he said, “You have a strong desire to communicate with people”. Yes, I have a strong desire to give the world whatever I have to give. That includes those political beliefs which aren’t usually written about. (E.g., I believe what I should believe about Bush and Iraq, but I don’t have any strong desires to write about it, or not yet.) I think that what I’ve written about the well-spouse experience is extremely political (and I’ll talk about why, and what, in my answer to the next question…). But yes, I’m often DRIVEN to communicate, with both my world and my self; that might be all I do.

Q. The National Well Spouse Foundation is an active organization. Can you describe the organization and the benefits for others to join?

As I’ve said above (answer to the first question), a well spouse is somebody whose spouse is chronically ill or disabled. The emphasis is on CHRONIC. As in “a way of life”, sometimes literally never-ending. Ill and disabled people are beginning to have the world’s sympathy, and often help; in some cases they have their culture. But well spouses and other family members and caregivers didn’t, until the formation of the Well Spouse Association. (An outgrowth of the recognition of the phenomenon of well spouse is that of well child, well parent, and so on). As I describe in “Dirty Details”, the life of the well spouse is often (and usually is, eventually) a “dire straits situation”. Many well-spouses are on call, or actually working, 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Some get two hours’ sleep a night, and/ or go through periods of getting NO sleep. And, in a society where women are perceived to be weak 70-year-old women are lifting men twice their weight onto and off of toilets. These are “regular people”, not professionals, in particular not nurses or weight-lifters). And all that is in addition to the kind of stuff that Michael Moore has in his new film “Sicko”.

The Well Spouse Association was formed in 1988 through the efforts of a writer (novelist), Maggie Strong; she wrote “Mainstay: For the Well Spouse of the Chronically Ill”, which was NOT a novel. On the last page of that book she wrote that she wanted to hear from other well spouses, towards the formation of this Well Spouse Association (www.wellspouse.com). It offers support, information, and advocacy — in the form of support groups, newsletter, respite weekends, an annual conference, “round robin” letter-writing groups for those whose situations preclude their leaving home for even one evening, and so on. — I’ve been active with the Association almost since its beginning, and mostly as a writer (and friend to many other well spouses I have met). At the first conference I read my “well spouse poetry”, and many well spouses were hearing for the first time the things that I expressed in the poems (in short, the “dirty details”, often in the language of “well spouse humor”). I got invited to read the poems at future conferences, sometimes give workshops, contribute both poems and articles to their newsletter, and so on. When my “well spouse books” began to get published (three prose books, “The Sitting-Down Hug” (The Liberal Press. TX)), “Epsilon Country”, and “Extreme Points” (both from the Center for Thanatology Research, NY), there was naturally a lot of interest on the part of the other well spouses. — I’ve been dubbed “our resident radical” by the former WSA president. I pull no punches, and I also believe that, in an individual well spouse’s life, there might indeed come a point, perhaps at the very diagnosis of the illness, when the well spouse chooses to opt out of the situation — that is, to decline the role of well spouse. And I believe that society should evolve to the point where that choice is supported, and in some cases suggested, by our health-care system, social workers, lawmakers, and in general those in charge. I believe there should be no penalty — financial, or societal — for such choices. I believe that, while it might be impossible or impractical for society to be that way NOW, the individuals “in charge” should do whatever they can. In one of my online books (“Cruel and Unusual”) I have a chapter called “Suggestions for Those in Charge”. People who have read and commented on it say that those suggestions make perfect sense. –I believe that all this is political; it connects with the women’s movement, and with ALL minority movements; I explain why in that same book (the chapter, “Epsilon Woman”.) I believe that, in this society, one of the bottom-line things that are wrong is that people are not encouraged to be SELF-advocates, or even in touch with their selves at all. This prevents people from being in touch with OTHERS. (Our Comrades, Our Selves — and the bad elements of the system know that darn well.) — I believe that the self is important (even if only on a temporary basis — I am aware of the Buddhist saying, “Study the self and forget the self”.). The self is in many ways a microcosm of the world. At any rate, I value, enjoy, and protect my own self, hoping and knowing that that extends to valuing, enjoying, and protecting the selves of others. I think this is important, not only as it pertains to well spouses (although that is a perfect example), but as it pertains to many other minority and other world issues.

Q. What poets/writers have influenced your work?

I’m going to try to keep this to a LIST: Anne Sexton (for her sensitivity, and not-trying to be or not be anything in particular), Sharon Olds (for a lot of what she has to say, as well as her writing personality), and I’m beginning to read Jane Hirshfield. Some local poets whom I admire and/or relate to have been Lili Bita (esp. for her poem which ends “make me believe it again”, and also for the beginning and middle of that poem), Elaine Terranova (for her sensitivity), and Barbara Crooker (for her takes on things that have happened to her and the grace with which she more than survives). I’m probably forgetting other poets and friends. Also, again being very honest, perhaps my greatest inspiration has been my own childhood and adolescent self (in particular, my adolescent diary, but also things that I remember that didn’t get into that diary). Also, I’m been inspired, and will probably continue to be inspired more and more, by the writings of mathematicians/ philosophers — in particular, Goedel (who proved that not even math can ever be complete), Cantor (who “saw” beyond even the infinite ruler), Euclid (haven’t read him since high school, but I remember), and the authors of the books that I’ve reviewed, in particular of “Category Theory” (a kind of “theory of everything”) and “Galois Theory” (why there’s no “quintic formula”, why we can’t square the circle, and other impossibilities — how complicated simple things must be). I’d like to include Wittgenstein, for his unusual, probably unique, take on everything, in particular math, but his thoughts seem, SO FAR, to take too different a direction from mine. (Later, probably, that will be precisely the point.)

Q. As an educator and prolific writer what advice would you give to new poets/writers?

My advice is, try not to be intimidated. There are many forms that intimidation takes. One is the “Every poem has to stand on its own” credo. A poem often does, but that to me is not helpful advice for a beginning writer (and it’s not advice that I usually think about, being an “about type of writer”, as I’ve said.) Another form that intimidation might take is “But is it poetry?” Well, if it’s not poetry, then it’s prose! ! Nothing wrong with prose. In fact, sometimes, when I feel that I have a particular poem in me but just can’t write it, I first write it as PROSE (usually in my diary, sometimes beginning, “I’m trying to write a poem about…”). Or I just TALK about it, to somebody else or to myself.. Sometimes I find that what I wanted to write IS indeed prose, or prosepoem, or “mere” diary excerpt, and sometimes it actually works its way into a poem. Either way is, ultimately, okay with me.) Another form that intimidation takes is the first-person taboo which many poets and schools of poetry seem to subscribe to. Maybe they’re right, but the body of the world’s published work doesn’t seem to indicate that. Bukowski once wrote a great poem about that, ending, “I promise, I’ll try to write about it / as though I weren’t there.” This isn’t the place to debate (and I sometimes also fall prey to that intimidation, and try to “take myself out of” some poems), but it can definitely be intimidating to new writers.

Q. Of your published works can you tell us if you have a favorite?

The short answer is: No! It’s a tad like asking a parent whether she has a favorite child and, continuing that probably overworked metaphor, parents probably actually DO have favorite children, at least sometimes or temporarily — and to further continue the metaphor, that favorite is often is the new one, if there IS a new one. So right now I’m pretty enamored of “Crossing the Equal Sign”. But not only because it’s a “new one” — also because it’s in some sense my “bottom line”. Math would have happened to me even if pregnancy loss and well-spouse-ry hadn’t; math is something that I “own” independent of other life-stuff (although it’s related, in many ways). It felt GOOD to place a book that was NOT about my life tragedies — first, to be FREE from them in that way, and second, to prove to myself and to others that I can do it; I don’t depend on special circumstances of my life in order to write and publish.

If I’m allowed more than one favorite, I’d choose the more recent ones, the ones I would not change a word of because they were written when my writing and editing skills were (at least so I currently feel) good enough. In particular, I like “Epsilon Country” because not only does it depict at-home caregiving and its ramifications but it also demonstrates my own deepening maturity (at the time); in particular, I actually worked through my anger (in particular my tantrums) via the writing of some of those poems (E.g., “Temper Tantrum as Suicide Attempt”); those poems both caused and reflect that working through. And I like “She Was Born She Died” (the second edition) and “Dirty Details” (prose) because, looking back, I see that, again, both books really did describe those details and again, they really have been helpful to other well spouses. (Many have actually taken steps to ensure that they don’t “wind up doing the same things that Marion did.”) And I like “These Covers to Crawl Under” (chapbook of “solipsist poems”, M.A.F. Press, MA) probably for the same reason that I like the math poems, which is that they’re about the emotional side of absolute truth. My husband’s a philosophy Ph.D. and he appreciated them.)

‘……. I’m a thrifting PRO. I’ve taught workshops on thrifting, and been both author and subject of articles on thrifting. And — big accomplishment last summer — I was chosen as the first “thrifter of the month” for the site, thethriftshopper.com (They found me because of one of my online poems which mentioned the word “thrifting”…). But I’m strictly an AMATEUR pianist. To be honest, I’m not bad for an amateur, but I make plenty of mistakes. MOSTLY, I’d be NERVOUS to give a piano concert; I wouldn’t be at all nervous to give a thrifting concert (whatever that might be).”